If awakening, Non-duality,enlightenment, Self-realization could be described

[Katie Davis]

How would you describe spiritual awakening or realization?

1. The realization of one' true nature.

2. A permanent shift in identity from the ego-self to true Self.

3. Waking up from the daytime dream.

4. Disidentification with conditioned thought.

5. The end of all psychological suffering.

6. Without diminishing the sacredness of form, realizing that who I truly am is beyond the body.

7. The key to world transformation lies within.

7. Something other?

[Tony Samara]

This is an interesting question.

Firstly I do not feel comfortable with the word enlightenment, which is often used in place of spiritual awakening or realization, as this is usually understood by western people and society in general as someone having reached something, which means that on some level there is a dualism, a separation, between the enlightened and the non-enlightened. I believe that we all are born with an innate sense of freedom that is always with us. In a sense we are all enlightened, we simply have forgotten this part of ourselves as other aspects of our being become much more in the forefront of our consciousness.

Having said that, in all spiritual traditions, including the one that I work with, there is a transcendence of the mundane or ego which imparts a sense of freedom that is not normally an everyday experience of the general population in the world today. And this experience I call by no name because as soon as you put a label on it, it creates ideas in the mind (if those ideas are already there for some reason), which then take us away from this actual experience. To value each experience is the primary goal of this spiritual discipline as then we begin to value ourselves in the most profound way - as one with life.

I think we all have very deep spiritual experiences but it makes no sense to have those experiences if they don't have a reference point. This reference point is a sense of consciousness that comes with practice. This consciousness is ever expanding, and at some point expands to a level where there is an awareness beyond the circular nature of the mundane experiences that most people go through today. This reference point is not, in my opinion, dramatised in one moment but rather a continued growth and at a certain point that growth goes beyond the limitations that we have in a personal sense and takes us to the ultimate freedom that some people describe as enlightenment. At this stage that mundane reference point becomes obsolete as the expanded awareness takes us much further beyond those mundane limitations that form such a dualism.

Really the only way to know if a person is enlightened in its truth is to be enlightened yourself and then you will see whether that sense of enlightenment corresponds to the person that you ask the question of. If you do not have such a reference point then ultimately the relationship would have to be of trust. Not in my words saying that I am enlightened but rather in the work that allows you to experience this sense of enlightenment. Many people that have worked with me say that I am very confusing as there is no formal dogma or simple guideline that helps one see the complexity and at the same time the simplicity of becoming "enlightened". This confusion is simply the minds of these people seeking an understanding of enlightenment and somehow it is confusing for them as they are unable to put a label onto the work that I do.

Ultimately the goal is for all of us to be enlightened as we are all the same, we are all one.

Tony Samara
www.tonysamara.org

[Katie Davis]

What Tony is sharing here is so true. We are already That which we have been seeking in virtually every other. The field of innocence and simplicity lies within and beyond virtually every human being (yet inseparable) and readily available right here and now. It is true you. It cannot take more time to be free of time. It cannot take more experience to realize that which is beyond experience.

The delusion is that there is a separated somebody who could attain enlightenment. No one is enlightened and no one is unenlightened. That someone, the false sense of ego "I" is virtually the only apparent obstruction. Yet that "I" is an altered state of consciousness itself, so it has within it the essential pure consciousness. If we ask this fundamental question within, "Who am I?" and then listen with every cell in the body, where is this thought arises from?, the mind turns inward.

The false "I" is a knot between the pure consciousness that we genuinely are and the "I am the body idea." As long as that tiny word is misidentified with, we cannot be conscious of what is "behind" it. Call it a veil or shadow. Its very function is to project outward and attach or reject other objects out of either fear or desire. This is just what the ego state of consciousness does. With persistence, the altered state of consciousness (false I) dissolves permanently and rests as the Heart or Pure I.

The mind is a mirror and our body and the world are appearing within the mirror. So when the mind is divided and facing outward, we have only apparent separation and misery. When the mind is turned inward that perfect mirror is able to reflect the purity and unconditional love, the divine and perfect peace. This is why the key to the world transformation is within you.

So enlightenment is something that happens to the mind, but all that happens is that it turns itself around. YOU however are neither the divided mind or the illumined mind. You are true Self that is eternal and already perfection right now. To acquire what I just typed as another idea is just another concept. The invitation is to consciously look ...

This is so simple and beyond all complexity. The mountain does not ask how can I become a mountain. It simply is. One cannot attain what one already is. We become conscious of what is really already here ... and that is extraordinary ...
We are then able to genuinely love all apparent diversity. Self appearing as ocean, Self appearing as Chandler, Self appearing as its power.



Tony Samara said:

This is an interesting question.

Firstly I do not feel comfortable with the word enlightenment, which is often used in place of spiritual awakening or realization, as this is usually understood by western people and society in general as someone having reached something, which means that on some level there is a dualism, a separation, between the enlightened and the non-enlightened. I believe that we all are born with an innate sense of freedom that is always with us. In a sense we are all enlightened, we simply have forgotten this part of ourselves as other aspects of our being become much more in the forefront of our consciousness.

Having said that, in all spiritual traditions, including the one that I work with, there is a transcendence of the mundane or ego which imparts a sense of freedom that is not normally an everyday experience of the general population in the world today. And this experience I call by no name because as soon as you put a label on it, it creates ideas in the mind (if those ideas are already there for some reason), which then take us away from this actual experience. To value each experience is the primary goal of this spiritual discipline as then we begin to value ourselves in the most profound way - as one with life.

I think we all have very deep spiritual experiences but it makes no sense to have those experiences if they don't have a reference point. This reference point is a sense of consciousness that comes with practice. This consciousness is ever expanding, and at some point expands to a level where there is an awareness beyond the circular nature of the mundane experiences that most people go through today. This reference point is not, in my opinion, dramatised in one moment but rather a continued growth and at a certain point that growth goes beyond the limitations that we have in a personal sense and takes us to the ultimate freedom that some people describe as enlightenment. At this stage that mundane reference point becomes obsolete as the expanded awareness takes us much further beyond those mundane limitations that form such a dualism.

Really the only way to know if a person is enlightened in its truth is to be enlightened yourself and then you will see whether that sense of enlightenment corresponds to the person that you ask the question of. If you do not have such a reference point then ultimately the relationship would have to be of trust. Not in my words saying that I am enlightened but rather in the work that allows you to experience this sense of enlightenment. Many people that have worked with me say that I am very confusing as there is no formal dogma or simple guideline that helps one see the complexity and at the same time the simplicity of becoming "enlightened". This confusion is simply the minds of these people seeking an understanding of enlightenment and somehow it is confusing for them as they are unable to put a label onto the work that I do.

Ultimately the goal is for all of us to be enlightened as we are all the same, we are all one.

Tony Samara
www.tonysamara.org

[Satsang]

Thanks for starting this discussion Katie,

And thank you Tony for your words of wisdom.

I have to agree with Tony whole heartedly...especially the part about just how simple it is. . It is really too simple for words. And also very hard to describe.

I also feel that knowing what enlightenment is, and LIVING an awakened life are two vey different things. It is easy to have the awakening experience, and then go right back to the dream. It is more challenging to have the awakening experience, and then LIVE that knowing moment to moment, as it is not always easy to shake the attachments we have formed to this "idea" of what we are not.

Of course after I say all these things, I really need to then let them go, otherwise it is just another idea to become attached to, and then defend against...resulting in seperation yet again :)

Thanks again to you beautiful beings! What a wonderful way to use the internet!

Namaste
Christine

[P.dasi]

Namaste,,,,,,,,Oh, a great discussion!! I have heard that enlightenment can be compared to awakening a sleeping person. In India they sing songs about enlightenment. One such song is called "Jiv Jago"., translated means " Wake up sleeping soul." A thought about experiencing realization, is that if you were sitting down eating your lunch, you yourself know when you are full, you yourself know that you feel nourished and have appeased your hunger. So when the connection to self realization is made, you will feel nourished, and satisfied. Your hankering and restlessness will cease. Another example is that "when the sun rises in the east, taking away the darkness of night, you see yourself." So the points above mentioned in the description of self realization, are all interwoven. Self realization is a personal experience, between you and God, while others are also experiencing their own individual and personal experience, simultaneously. Achintya beda beda Tattva, translated means: "Simultaneously one yet different". So we are all in this together.

[Katie Davis]

Satsang said:

Thanks for starting this discussion Katie,

And thank you Tony for your words of wisdom.

I have to agree with Tony whole heartedly...especially the part about just how simple it is. . It is really too simple for words. And also very hard to describe.

I also feel that knowing what enlightenment is, and LIVING an awakened life are two vey different things. It is easy to have the awakening experience, and then go right back to the dream. It is more challenging to have the awakening experience, and then LIVE that knowing moment to moment, as it is not always easy to shake the attachments we have formed to this "idea" of what we are not.

Of course after I say all these things, I really need to then let them go, otherwise it is just another idea to become attached to, and then defend against...resulting in seperation yet again :)

Thanks again to you beautiful beings! What a wonderful way to use the internet!

Namaste
Christine

Hello Christine and thank you for your message. I agree with Tony as well, which is why we speak of the myth of enlightenment. No one is enlightened and no one is unenlightened. The mind realizes the mistake in identity. Whereas, Pure Awareness is forever realized.

We have this impression that what we call "enlightenment" is difficult. I meet people who have been in practices for 20-25 years, without realizing who they already are. We could say that the practitioner is the obstruction; the one who believes it requires more time to be timeless and more experience to realize that which is beyond experience.

When in fact, it is more like simply turning your head from the right to the left. The "I" turned outward looks from the altered state of consciousness and therefore experiences within the work the reflection of the divided mind. The dualities are not truly in the world of form. We are the Heart of all being, misidentifying with the false "I" and just as you say, its very function is to attach to other objects which make awake living more difficult.

What we refer to as mind is only a mirror, so when the mind-made self turns inward, it reflects the pure beauty of pure consciousness and Love thrives. "Collectively," that is also the complete transformation of the world.

This requires only one question, "who am I?" and listen with every cell in your body. Where is the "I" thought arising from?
That "I" is altered consciousness and it will dissolve and remain at home as the Heart ... call it Pure I if you wish. This is called Self-inquiry and recommended by Eckhart Tolle, Ramana Marshi and Adi Shankar and countless others since it is the direct approach. I sharing it with people, because it is immediate. Now twenty two years ago was the radical spontaneous awakening, so this was not the pathway. Nonetheless, it is extraordinary in its simplicity. It wasn't Ramana's path either, but it was Eckhart's. He was dreadfully suffering and heard himself say, "I can't stand to live with myself." He realized, I can't be two and asked "Who is I?" Immediate ...

Yes, and then just as you say, the "I" comes up again, we misidentify again and get lots in objects and suffer. It is only a habit. Ask the question.

The Pure Awareness (Heart, Pure I or however you would like to label is ever present just as Tony is sharing. It never changes. You are aware when you are driving, aware when you are washing, aware when you are crying, aware when angry, always aware. So just as it is being shared here the issue is not with the Awareness. Awareness is everywhere YOU are. But as soon as the altered state misidentifies with the "I" thought, it ties a knot between the Awareness being-consciousness-bliss (Radiant Self) and the "I am the body" idea. The simple and immediate question unties the knot immediately.

The "I" thought goes back home to the Heart. When it falls, all of the attachments that it is constantly attaching to fall like a wall of sand, which allows awake living to be a consistent reality. We then have:

Stillness ... driving. Stillness washing the dishes. Without all of the psychology of the false "I" in between. Silence ... walking. This is the final end of all suffering ... false "I" and it psychology suffering.

So ... let's call it no name ... and give it no label at all.

In the beginning, it seems like a personal awakening. The magnificent truth is that Consciousness is no longer identifying with form and therefore no longer getting lost in form. We live at an extraordinary time! Form and the world, including your beautiful body is still there of course. It is that the pure consciousness is no longer shifting into its altered state.

Only This Love ~ Katie

[Katie Davis]

P.dasi said:

Namaste,,,,,,,,Oh, a great discussion!! I have heard that enlightenment can be compared to awakening a sleeping person. In India they sing songs about enlightenment. One such song is called "Jiv Jago"., translated means " Wake up sleeping soul." A thought about experiencing realization, is that if you were sitting down eating your lunch, you yourself know when you are full, you yourself know that you feel nourished and have appeased your hunger. So when the connection to self realization is made, you will feel nourished, and satisfied. Your hankering and restlessness will cease. Another example is that "when the sun rises in the east, taking away the darkness of night, you see yourself." So the points above mentioned in the description of self realization, are all interwoven. Self realization is a personal experience, between you and God, while others are also experiencing their own individual and personal experience, simultaneously. Achintya beda beda Tattva, translated means: "Simultaneously one yet different". So we are all in this together.

Hello P. dasi ~

Thank you so much for this wisdom sharing. Just as you are saying, awakening from the nightime dream is just like waking up from the daytime dream. It is just that we wake up profoundly more! We wake up and realize that we have spent our lives dreamimg!

This is why it is referred to as "awakening." Back in 1986, when the awakening spontaneously occurred, I had never heard of awakening, enlightenment or Self-realization. So, I didn't even know what to call it. I went to spiritual teachers, physicians, psychologists, psychiatrists and clergy. All I could share was that, "I am awake now and Katie is no longer here." :-) A lot of raised eyebrows. :-) It was not until I met Sundance in 1988 that I discovered that it had a name. He awakened in 1982 with Satoshi (Osho) and Shunyata named the Rare Born Mystic by Ramana Maharshi.

Now, I am going to have to use that word enlightenment here again, since it is different than Self-realization. Enlightenment is a non-experience. Some who are seeking enlightenment are doing so for the experience and it is not. And of course, the seeker who is "efforting" is a movement away, which is why teachers ask you to just be still. While not ultimately true, the Heart is seeking "you." I guess similar to a large magnet, pulling the false "I" into the Heart. Be still and be caught! :-) This is another reason why we say this is effortless. Whereas Self-realization is a CONSCIOUS realization that "I am That!"

This is a great analogy that you are using by comparing eating and knowing when you are full. A synonym for realization is fullfillment. When we stop trying to separate and to be only a fraction (false "I), we realize what has forever more been fulfilled. As a fraction, we are trying to fulfill ourselves with objects within the world. But adding more fractions will never fulfill. In the end, a fraction will only be a fraction. The lack that the ego feels is the ego's search for happiness and it can never complete itself. Whereas, if we surrender the fraction, we are overwhelming fulfilled.

Let's talk about the concept of "I" and the concept of "God." Identified with the false "I", we experience dual spirituality in our attempt to separate. "I am separate from God." If we remove the false I ... there is only the divinity ... total Non-duality.
So the concept of "I" and the concept of God are two concepts that arise as the same time and will always remain separate. In the disappearance of the concept of "I" ... the concept of God disappears together ... in the amazing realization of Non-dual (not two) spirituality.

The perception that you shared is true. We are an unfathomable field so all the shifts within the field of consciousness are noticed simultaneously. There seems to be diversity on the surface level of things. The body named Katie is in Hawaii. The body named P. dasi is appearing somewhere else. When I am misidentified with Katie, I think that everything is just "me." As the field of consciousness ... I am the Totality ... appearing a Katie and P.dasi. I guess we could call it the Total Being ... is all of its diversity.

Thank you, P. dasi for offering the opportunity to share a little.

Only This Love ~ Katie

http://www.KatieDavis.org

[P.dasi]

Hey, Katie,,,,,,,,,,,thankyou for sharing a little. I followed the drift. From my studies, under the guidance of my Guru A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, I have learned that there are two distinct different paths of enlightenment. One is the personal path, and the other the impersonal path. I believe you have come across the path that leads to Nirvana, or the Brahmajyoti, and perhaps there are other names for the same thing. Bhakti Yoga is similar, but different. Here the goal is a personal relationship with God, Bhagavan, or more specifically Radha Krsna, with features of personal exchange and service.

Here transcendental pastimes are enacted between the Supreme, and His servant. It is described that we are part and parcel of God, as a drop of water from the ocean is also the ocean, but at the same time , a drop of ocean water cannot equal the totality of the ocean on it's own. You could say we are tiny particles of God , the same in quality, but not in quantity.

It is said we were created so that we can experience loving exchange with the Supreme Godhead., in a variety of rasas, or mellows, like either neutrality, servitorship, friendship, parental, or conjugal. The experience you speak of , my master has described as neutrality, or merging into the void, or energy effulgence of the Lord. One experiences only the sense of "Being" or voidness of material experience.

It's described that after attaining that state, many yogis fall down from that plateform, because they become restless to taste personal exchange. So Bhakti Yoga is different because it deals with transcendental relationship and exchange based on a body made of " Knowledge, Bliss, and Eternity". Love is the basic principle of Bhakti Yoga,,,,Bhakti translated as Devotion. So in Bhakti Yoga one looses oneself in the emotion of divine love. A pure selfless state beyond time and space...........so there are many steps on the stairway of yoga, enlightenment, perfection, samadhi, liberation, call it what you may. Depending on our personal desire, we become attracted to a particular path of yoga, and each yoga path has a line of masters who deliver their teachings , to form a chain, master to disciple, which is called the "parampara" in the sanskrit language.

We can dabble here and there on our own., but for myself , the idea of following an enlightened master, who has got a tried and true recipe for self realization, or enlightenment, is most satisfying.,,,,,,,,,,nice speaking with you........p.dasi

[Katie Davis]

Beloved p.dasi ~

How beautiful that Beloved Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada has appeared! As you know, surrender yourself totally to this pathway and you will not miss the mark of the Divine. Any pathway will do, it is a matter of being wherever YOU are. Virtually all pathways will lead to where you actually already are! :-)

Just a note on individuality. The analogy that I often use is that the individuality is like a sugar cube that is suddenly dropped in a hot cup of tea. Once it is totally dissolved, there is only the sweetness of tea! :-) The partiality that is the drop of water that enters the vastness of the ocean, no longer maintains its separation. It can no longer be perceived as separate from the sea. All duality is finished. I guess we could say, "we" are consumed by the Divine. :-)

Then we have Divine living as Katie, Divine expressing as P.dasi. When we totally surrender in this manner it is so amazingly beautiful. While the following is dual in nature such as language often is, we become an instrument of the Divine yet also inseparable. It is always expressing itself as wise love, true compassion and selflessly serving itself everywhere since it is virtually everywhere and nowhere! :-)

When it is recognized that the life situation is happening all by itself ... such ease and simplicity there is in living as purely being.

True Self is already radiantly shining within every human being ... and that is a miracle!

All Love to you and deepest blessings ~ Katie