What are the primary causes of suffering?

[Katie Davis]

Please share what you have noticed as the primary causes of suffering:

1. Identification with thought.

2. Identification with the ego; the mind-made self.

3. The idea that I am separate from everything, including the divine.

4. Seeking outside myself for happiness, joy, peace and fulfillment.

5. My concepts and judgments filter how I see others and the world.

6. Not being here; not being present.

7. Seeking permanence in impermanent things.

8. Clinging or resisting outer or inner experience.

9. Others?

[Theresa D.Boeur]

Namaste. Yes, all excellent points, our illusion rising from misidentification with the false ego. Another point, would be forgetfullness of God, and our true nature, as part and parcel of the Supreme Lord. Also, our idea that God is somehow an intelligent "light", or "force", and yet lacks personal features. Due to the forgetfullness, and tendency for the living entitiy to make mistakes, we feel that we have something God does not...personality

[Katie Davis]

Namaste Theresa ~ Thank you for sharing this wisdom. What Theresa has shared is true. When we misidentify with the concept "I," we have separated through some false notion that we are therefore separate from the divine. In this, the only option is dual spirituality (you who is separate from Lord). As Theresa says, we then suffer that idea of separation. There is a pain gap between "you" and the divine. When we believe ourselves to be a fraction, we are constantly striving to complete ourselves which leads to suffering. Whereas, if we would surrender the fraction, we realize total fulfillment.

This is not to say that the body is not there with all of its beautiful inborn talents and certain characteristics. We simply shift identity from the false idea "I" to the Pure I that is divine. In this manner, our innate talents appear purely free of all of the conditioning of the false sense of self.

There just is no longer a "doer" to be right or wrong. Only True Self and its power (the appearance of the universe).

Only This Love ~ Katie

Theresa D.Boeur said:

Namaste. Yes, all excellent points, our illusion rising from misidentification with the false ego. Another point, would be forgetfullness of God, and our true nature, as part and parcel of the Supreme Lord. Also, our idea that God is somehow an intelligent "light", or "force", and yet lacks personal features. Due to the forgetfullness, and tendency for the living entitiy to make mistakes, we feel that we have something God does not...personality

[Katie Davis]

Theresa ~ I could not get that attachment to open. Is it a photo or something that you have written?

Theresa D.Boeur said:

Namaste. Yes, all excellent points, our illusion rising from misidentification with the false ego. Another point, would be forgetfullness of God, and our true nature, as part and parcel of the Supreme Lord. Also, our idea that God is somehow an intelligent "light", or "force", and yet lacks personal features. Due to the forgetfullness, and tendency for the living entitiy to make mistakes, we feel that we have something God does not...personality

[Satsang]

In my experience i would have to say all of the above, with the emphasis on the mis-identification. I think what happens is that we build a reality of believing we are something that we are not. And we could let go of that in a heart beat, because the truth of what we are is always right there. But unfortunately we can become so attached to this IDEA of what we are...as an individual self.....that the letting go part becomes a great challenge.This ultimate attachment, in my opinion, is what leads to suffering.

[P.dasi]

Namaste:........Wonderful discussion. Suffering is something I talked about with a few Indian people I met while on pilgrimage to some Holy Sites in Vrndavan.U.P. They see suffering pertaining to the material body, and not to the soul who resides within. They do not identify with their bodies. They believe that suffering comes from bad karma, and happiness comes from good karma. Bad karma brings suffering because it is the result of causing pain and suffering to others either by bodily actions, spoken words, or bad thoughts. They believe that happiness comes back to us, if we give happiness to others, and relieve them of their pains and problems, and sufferings. Most people I have met, are warm, friendly and helpful, and believe in the law of Karma. So suffering is a matter of what goes around, comes around. Do unto others type of thing., and of course one good turn deserves another. Also there is the karma, we make for ourselves, because we cannot make right choices. The suffering of constipation, is due to our not drinking enough water, not exercising, or having a proper diet, or knowledge of herbs. This suffering we cause to ourselves, and it's our responsibility to get help. So there are things we can do to alleviate suffering, and one of them is to become knowledgeable of the law of karma.

[Theresa D.Boeur]

Hello Katie, That was a beautiful photo I was trying to share, but I'm having trouble with the photo upload here on the site. Instead of a picture, there's computer jargon. Oh well, thankyou for engaging us in such a meaningful discussion! For many of us truly seeking real answers, and transcendence in this lifetime, to be reminded of the tricky false ego, is so very important! I was reviewing Eckhart's 'New Earth' today, and he mentioned the ego's need to identify with form, like a mask in front, even if that identity is as a"spiritual seeker" or "victim", or "I'm not into all that stuff", it's all the same game! Our Soul's purpose is to go beyond Maya, to that which is..consciousness. But oh, what challenge in this world of smoke and mirrors, and false desires.....we have to be steadfast! Love, Theresa

[Katie Davis]

Theresa D.Boeur said:

Namaste. Yes, all excellent points, our illusion rising from misidentification with the false ego. Another point, would be forgetfullness of God, and our true nature, as part and parcel of the Supreme Lord. Also, our idea that God is somehow an intelligent "light", or "force", and yet lacks personal features. Due to the forgetfullness, and tendency for the living entitiy to make mistakes, we feel that we have something God does not...personality

Yes ... such clarity. Thank you for sharing this wisdom with everyone.

All Love ~ Katie

[Katie Davis]

Satsang said:

In my experience i would have to say all of the above, with the emphasis on the mis-identification. I think what happens is that we build a reality of believing we are something that we are not. And we could let go of that in a heart beat, because the truth of what we are is always right there. But unfortunately we can become so attached to this IDEA of what we are...as an individual self.....that the letting go part becomes a great challenge.This ultimate attachment, in my opinion, is what leads to suffering.

Thank you, Christine. You are sharing this with great clarity. When we misidentify with that tiny first person pronoun of personal suffering ... it is the source of all misery and sorrow. Not only for "us" but also the world.

[Katie Davis]

Theresa D.Boeur said:

Hello Katie, That was a beautiful photo I was trying to share, but I'm having trouble with the photo upload here on the site. Instead of a picture, there's computer jargon. Oh well, thankyou for engaging us in such a meaningful discussion! For many of us truly seeking real answers, and transcendence in this lifetime, to be reminded of the tricky false ego, is so very important! I was reviewing Eckhart's 'New Earth' today, and he mentioned the ego's need to identify with form, like a mask in front, even if that identity is as a"spiritual seeker" or "victim", or "I'm not into all that stuff", it's all the same game! Our Soul's purpose is to go beyond Maya, to that which is..consciousness. But oh, what challenge in this world of smoke and mirrors, and false desires.....we have to be steadfast! Love, Theresa

Thank you Theresa ... I truly enjoyed your post. :-) :-) Isn't that just the way that it is?! It sounds like you see this, but I will share this with everyone, be careful of that tricky one who is trying to be still. That is the same thief ... just being spiritual. :-) If you ask that "Who am I?" question while looking within ... no one there ... only stillness.

[Katie Davis]

P.dasi said:

Namaste:........Wonderful discussion. Suffering is something I talked about with a few Indian people I met while on pilgrimage to some Holy Sites in Vrndavan.U.P. They see suffering pertaining to the material body, and not to the soul who resides within. They do not identify with their bodies. They believe that suffering comes from bad karma, and happiness comes from good karma. Bad karma brings suffering because it is the result of causing pain and suffering to others either by bodily actions, spoken words, or bad thoughts. They believe that happiness comes back to us, if we give happiness to others, and relieve them of their pains and problems, and sufferings. Most people I have met, are warm, friendly and helpful, and believe in the law of Karma. So suffering is a matter of what goes around, comes around. Do unto others type of thing., and of course one good turn deserves another. Also there is the karma, we make for ourselves, because we cannot make right choices. The suffering of constipation, is due to our not drinking enough water, not exercising, or having a proper diet, or knowledge of herbs. This suffering we cause to ourselves, and it's our responsibility to get help. So there are things we can do to alleviate suffering, and one of them is to become knowledgeable of the law of karma.

Thank you P.dasi ~

I can't share much about karma, but I do know that karma belongs to the altered state of consciousness that still is limited to the "I am the body" idea as its true identity. As the ego, we are subject to the law of cause and effect. When we realize our ultimate identity ... we are free of this law. The Pure Awareness being-conscious-bliss is unconditional love and perfect peace of the sacred. The closest we can get to this with the mind is to say that everything is both the cause and the effect of everything that happens and it does not necessarily appear in a linear manner. You see, we are the Totality. We are also beyond causality and its requirement of space and time.

Suffering requires identifying with the false "I." That is all. That thought is the first thought of all the other thoughts and it has tremendous pulling power. It pulls along with it all of the negativity.

The point of enlightenment and later Self-realization is that it is the complete end of all suffering. We have a well of unending perfect love and no matter how much is "given away" :-) it is an unending supply.

The key here is to look directly and see what is actually going on within you. What is true for you? Otherwise, we are gathering more and more concepts instead of direct experience. What are you noticing within you? We don't need to get involved with anything, we just begin noticing how the ego is functioning. Someone says something rude, the ego judges it based on its past conditioning ... "he can't say that to me" "I am going to defend myself," etc. Well, our body believes the thoughts that we identify with. We have a negative thought, the body thinks that it is real and contracts. That contraction is negative emotion. In other words, the suffering is self-inflicted.

Until we are free of the ego, we are asked to allow things to be. That allowing is a tremendous power and it is a transformative power. When we are willing to consciously suffer, we are transforming the negativity into the genuine love that it is. So we become transparent, if you will. This does not mean that you need to be a door mat. :-) It is just there is space for total acceptance. Instead of resisting the present moment, we allow it to be. This is just intelligent, since it IS already. We allow a little space around it. Then we may or may not take action, while being free of reaction.

I am not saying to repress your feelings. That is like putting a dam on a river. The river will gain more force. Nor am I saying to act it out in the world. I am suggesting that you look within in an uninvolved manner. We allow what is happening "externally" and "internally." We only watch and notice. Yes, I see my thoughts, I notice that the thoughts are making me more and more negative, how does that emotion feel in the body.

When you watch thought, they cannot use you. Thoughts are really not a problem. It is our identification with the thought. There is a lot more to be shared here, so I am open to any questions on this.

Thank you so much for sharing. It is helpful to everyone who is reading.

Only This Love ~ Katie

[P.dasi]

Namaste Katie:...........Thankyou for your reply. It's great to speak with you.! In regards to our present conversation, I have read stories, about Indian women, of course written about 70 yrs. ago, who after being widowed, would enter the funeral pyre, of their husband, voluntarily.(the Sati Rite) This act in and of itself proves that the original spiritual culture and belief system of India is not based on the body, or identification with the body or mind. The existence is based on something higher. It would only be out of great love and a heart felt feeling of separation, that a woman would volunteer to end her physical body, to be with her husband in the after life. As years went by, women who did not really genuinely feel on this higher level, were forced to follow the Sati Rite, and because of the social turmoil it caused, the Rite was banned. Women who identified with their bodies, just could not endure the flames of the burning pyre.

People in India, those I have spoken with, believe that who we are is" soul." The soul is trapped in a material body, like a bird in a cage. They are taught from childhood, not to identify with the body,or mind, because it is only the exterior vehicle of the soul. They believe that this physical world we live in is in fact a prison house, a place of bondage. They believe that we reincarnate until we become free or liberated from the material body. Perfection in their eyes, is in the attainment of pure love of God. That is described as a total feeling of surrender, to the Divine Will. The Divine Will is personified. Lord Sri Rama, husband of Sitadevi, is a Divinity honored and worshiped all over India., as well as Lord Krsna and Srimati Radharani, who are considered different aspects of the same Divine Energy. Other's include Lord Shiva and Parvati, and Lord Brahma and Sarasvati. All aspects of the orginal Divinity.

But because India has adopted western values, more and more, the original wisdom of enlightenment is being replaced by western materialism. It's amazing that western people are adopting or delving into India's ancient wisdom. Perhaps when Indian people see the interest of their original culture being adopted by westerners, they will once again take up and remember their traditional roots of wisdom.

India's culture is certainly one lived by the understanding that I am not this body, or mind. "Aham Brahmasmi", meaning I am spirit. Only with this understanding could Mahatma Gandhi, get his fellow country men to partake in the civil movement of non violent opposition to the British Rule and occupation of India. Can you imagine,,,,,,how those people stood and accepted the brutal beating of the British Soldiers.???? Could any of us do that? Are we enlightened to that point, to take beating and not identify with it? To stand on a scorching funeral pyre, while the flesh of the body burns, and not identify with that? These people were not ordinary, their level of consciousness was not ordinary. They put themselves into another dimension, they traveled into another realm or plain of existence.

Samadhi, is a term in India used to describe the state of perfection, where one no longer identifies with the body or mind. Samadhi is of two types,,,,,,,,,personal,,,,,,,,,,and impersonal. Mayavada Samadhi is merging oneself with the totality of Divine Energy in a cosmic silence. Personal Samadhi, is when one merges oneself in a loving feeling with one's chosen Deity, whether it be Lord Krsna, or Lord Rama. Here the person has heard pastimes of his chosen Divinity, and developed a transcendental relationship with that Divinity. The closest I can come to describing it would be like, when we watch a movie. We identify with the hero in the movie. We feel his victory and struggles. We see the hero as our friend, for example, and we develope a genuine attraction or adoration for that personality. We feel we would like to be in that movie alongside him. So it is somewhat with Bhakti Yoga. We read from ancient scriptural teachings, pastimes of Lord Krsna, or Lord Rama, we begin to get to know Him, develop affection and love and respect for Him. We eventually wish to be liberated to the realm or mansion in His Divine Kingdom. This Kingdom is described as Chintamani. A transcendental land of eternity, knowledge and bliss, full of endless variety and pastimes.

It is described that here in this world of illusion, all is temporary like a dream. Everything created here , time will destroy. But in the Spiritual Kingdom, all there is eternal, full of the fountain of youth. No old age, disease, or death, and time is conspicuous by it's absence. All have beautiful eternal youthful bodies made of immortality, which is the essence of the soul. It is stated that our immortal body is our soul. That our immortal body, or soul, is at present covered by a physical gross body of matter, and a subtle mind made of ego. Perfection is then to get out of the bodily concept of life, and to again remember our lost position as eternal soul. A soul who has a spiritual eternal family, relationships and activities, found in the spiritual, or enlightened dimension. The awakening of this state is called self realization, or enlightenment. One then lives in this world, but is not of the world. As Jesus has said.

For Jesus to have been brutally beaten, and crucified, and not to have identified with the pain, or his physical body was also an enlightened state. So enlightened that he asked forgiveness for those who were very cruel to him. He knew he was not that body, in a real way. ....................p.dasi